1 2 3 4 5 KERR COUNTY COMMISSIONERS COURT 6 Workshop 7 Tuesday, July 31, 2001 8 2:15 p.m. 9 Commissioners' Courtroom 10 Kerr County Courthouse 11 Kerrville, Texas 12 13 14 15 16 VOLUNTEER FIRE DEPARTMENT CONTRACTS 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 PRESENT: FREDERICK L. HENNEKE, Kerr County Judge H. A. "BUSTER" BALDWIN, Commissioner Pct. 1 24 WILLIAM "BILL" WILLIAMS, Commissioner Pct. 2 JONATHAN LETZ, Commissioner Pct. 3 25 LARRY GRIFFIN, Commissioner Pct. 4 2 1 On Tuesday, July 31, 2001, at 2:15 p.m., a workshop of 2 the Kerr County Commissioners Court was held in the 3 Commissioners' Courtroom, Kerr County Courthouse, Kerrville, 4 Texas, and the following proceedings were had in open court: 5 P R O C E E D I N G S 6 JUDGE HENNEKE: Okay. We will now adjourn 7 the special Commissioners Court meeting for purpose of 8 accepting the bids, and convene a workshop for the purpose 9 of discussing the new volunteer fire department contract for 10 form. Commissioner Griffin, I'm going to let you run with 11 this one. 12 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Thank you, Judge. I 13 think all the people who were probably interested have 14 received copies of the draft form, of the proposed draft of 15 the new contract form for the volunteer fire departments. 16 Let me just say that it has been greatly simplified by -- I 17 think, based on review by Travis and by David Motley, 18 that -- that we've got the basis here for something that 19 should work in the legal sense. It's a lot easier to 20 understand and to -- probably to implement than what we've 21 done previously. We certainly hope so. 22 A little bit about the -- the general outline 23 of the way this is put together. Page 1 -- there's really 24 only two pages of contract; Page 3 is the signature and 25 certification page for getting the thing agreed to and 3 1 recorded by the Clerk. Page 1 has most of the meat of 2 the -- of the contract terms. Page 2 has some of the 3 boilerplate legalese and policy issues that have to be 4 included in most of these kinds of contracts. What I would 5 propose to do today is that we'll quickly run through the 6 draft. I can give you a little bit of background on what 7 the purpose of each is, and this will be very brief. Feel 8 free to -- for anyone to interject questions, comments as we 9 go along, and then at the end, we can sort of summarize 10 where we are with this draft. And then I would propose that 11 when we get all the comments back, Judge, that we bring this 12 up on the agenda for the second court meeting in August to 13 discuss -- consider and discuss accepting and approving the 14 contract form document for them to be distributed to the 15 departments and executed shortly thereafter in the month of 16 September so that it would be in place before the beginning 17 of the fiscal year. 18 JUDGE HENNEKE: All right. 19 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: If there's no further 20 comments by any of the other members of the Court or members 21 of the workshop -- 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Larry, just one comment. 23 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Yeah? 24 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Were you planning to kind 25 of update everyone on the new -- the funding change that 4 1 we're talking about from the budget standpoint? 2 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: We can discuss that, 3 too. I think perhaps at the end would be the better time to 4 do that. 5 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay. 6 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Rather than at the 7 beginning. So -- to make sure we get through the contract, 8 'cause that's -- and realize that once the contract form is 9 agreed to, that's the form of the contract that all of the 10 departments will -- will get copies of. Of course, it will 11 have their name in it instead of just a blank here, but once 12 the contract form is agreed to, it will apply to all of the 13 departments. Without further ado, let's just quickly run 14 down the whereas's. They're strictly language -- that's 15 language out of the statutes that says how you contract -- 16 how counties can contract with volunteer fire departments, 17 et cetera. 18 When we get into the "It is therefore 19 agreed," the term obviously is October 1st, 2001, till 20 September 30th, 2002. The services will be that the fire 21 department will provide fire protection in accordance with 22 applicable state law and rules. There will be a phrase 23 added in here; Dutch pointed out a -- the other day to me 24 that that probably should read -- and we can do this. Don't 25 worry about it at the moment, because we can come up with 5 1 the language that those services will be provided under this 2 contract in the area of primary responsibility for each 3 department. It will just read that way. 4 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: You mean the 5 geographical area? 6 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Geographical area. So 7 that there's no question that that's what we're contracting 8 for. 9 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Good point. 10 MR. HINTZE: Sir? If you would, please, when 11 you -- when you word that, address the primary fire area of 12 responsibility, but will provide assistance to other areas 13 as local requirements dictate or allow, whatever. 14 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: The reason I think we 15 would probably hesitate from doing that is that -- that 16 that's sort of out of our jurisdiction; we can't make you 17 go. 18 MR. HINTZE: I understand. I understand. 19 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: But we're -- we'll 20 certainly consider that. It's just that I don't think we 21 can require one department to go help another. Even though 22 we know they will. But -- but let -- I'll have to work with 23 Travis and David on that, but I don't see how we can do 24 that. 25 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I agree with you. 6 1 MR. HINTZE: I'll be glad to throw some words 2 together for you. 3 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Okay. Do that, and 4 we'll take a look at it. 5 MR. HINTZE: Okay. 6 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Under consideration, 7 there are two things there. That is an amount of money 8 that's -- that's for authorized uses, which is essentially 9 any expenses that the department has, and also workmen's 10 compensation coverage, when the volunteer firefighters are 11 performing firefighting duties. The use of funds does just 12 say that you have to use it for authorized things. You 13 can't -- don't beer bust with it, I guess. The method of 14 payment -- 15 MR. HALL: Larry, on that use of funds -- and 16 just a question on my part. Would motor fuel and oil -- is 17 that type of stuff all under equipment? Is that how you're 18 going to look at that? 19 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Yes, that's a 20 legitimate expense. About the only thing you can't do is 21 that one sentence in there where -- seriously, where it says 22 you can't pay salary, you can't pay any person a salary out 23 of the money. But any legitimate expense for the department 24 is essentially covered. Yes? 25 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Danny? 7 1 MR. MORALES: Oh, yes, sir. On use of funds, 2 "expenditures up to the amount shown in Paragraph 2," should 3 that be Paragraph 3? 4 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Yes. Okay. The 5 method of payment, there's two ways in the proposal here 6 that -- for method of payment. If you expend funds, you 7 have a paid invoice or receipt, you bring that to the County 8 Auditor. That's essentially the way we've done it in the 9 past. But, also unpaid invoices. And, for those 10 departments that sometimes have cash flow problems with 11 large purchases, if you have a -- an invoice which you have 12 not yet paid, you can present that for prepayment so that 13 then you can put that money in the bank and turn around, 14 write a check, pay the bill. So, that's -- that really was 15 possible to do before, but the old contract did not 16 definitely state that you could do it either way. And, this 17 way you can help your cash flow position a little bit. 18 The insurance section is right out of the 19 Civil Practice and Remedies Code for the limits on the 20 liability that a volunteer fire department has, and this is 21 essentially the same as the old contract had. That -- the 22 reason that's cited here -- that Civil Practice and Remedies 23 section is cited, is that, of course, the Legislature later 24 on may amend the -- that Code to some other level of -- and 25 that's just a placeholder for you to know where those 8 1 numbers come from. 2 MR. HINTZE: Larry, when you researched that 3 and you talked about it being in the Texas Civil Practice 4 and Remedies Code, I know when we discussed this a couple of 5 years ago, that amendment was also in the Texas Insurance 6 Code. 7 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Yeah, the -- 8 MR. HINTZE: Is the Texas Insurance Code in 9 there as well? 10 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Now, the Insurance 11 Code actually addresses it a little bit differently. The 12 Insurance Code talks about -- about how companies provide 13 that insurance. The Insurance Code generally talks about 14 how the insurance industry operates. Civil Practice and 15 Remedies actually sets the tort liability limit. 16 MR. HINTZE: I'd like to discuss that with 17 you. That's not the way I read the change when it came out. 18 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Okay. 19 MR. HINTZE: The -- the change in that 20 HB2169. 21 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Mm-hmm? 22 MR. HINTZE: It also included a change to the 23 Texas Insurance Code, which was very explicit, and it 24 said -- it addressed, once again, the same limits, but there 25 was no reference in there how a company provides -- in other 9 1 words, these are the limits that a -- an emergency service 2 organization shall carry. 3 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Well, it's not talking 4 about -- it doesn't say how much you have to carry. It says 5 what your limit of liability -- should you be sued, this is 6 the limit of liability, and that's in -- in the Civil 7 Practice and Remedies. It says the limit of liability of a 8 unit of local government under this chapter is limited to 9 money damages in a maximum amount of $100,000 to each 10 person, $300,000 to each single occurrence, and $100,000 for 11 each single occurrence for injury of -- or destruction of 12 property. So, that's where it's actually setting the limit, 13 is in Civil Practice and Remedies. But, we can review that, 14 and if it requires -- 15 MR. HINTZE: After reading the fine print, I 16 stand corrected. Thank you very much. 17 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Okay. It's -- we'll 18 take a good look at that. 19 MR. HINTZE: Section 4 -- what I was 20 referring to was Section 4, HB2169, but I think you're 21 correct in that regard. 22 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Okay. Paragraph 7, 23 financial reports. The only thing that this contract would 24 require of the departments is that 60 days after the end of 25 the fiscal year, after the end of the contract period, just 10 1 a one-page summary or a copy of all the paid receipts that 2 department had that spent County funds; nothing else, just 3 the County funds. And, what that will do is allow our 4 Auditor to reconcile his books against the department's 5 books to make sure that there's no disparity; just good 6 accounting for -- just accounting for where the public funds 7 went, but that's all that would be required of the financial 8 report. 9 MR. AHRENS: Larry, for to us to get the 10 money, though, don't we have to give you the invoice so you 11 guys actually have copies of all that? 12 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Yes. But in case of a 13 prepaid invoice, for example -- in other words, you bring an 14 invoice that you just got, the Auditor issues a check for 15 $1,000, let's say, and then, somewhere betwixt the issuance 16 of that check and the actual payment of the bills, they 17 said, "Oh, wait a minute. We got another bill to pay, so we 18 got money coming in; we'll actually pay this a little 19 differently." And so there's -- it's not that there would 20 be any difference. It's just that this makes sure that the 21 money that was allocated for the specified purpose got spent 22 that way, and it's really just a bookkeeping thing, just a 23 one-page handwritten summary. We would probably do it, 24 because we'll already have -- as you say, we'll already have 25 copies of the invoice, itself. 11 1 The reason for the note in there, by the way, 2 at the bottom, was that we didn't want those departments 3 that have total receipts -- that's grants, donations, County 4 money, whatever -- of more than $25,000 -- it is my 5 understanding, from reading the I.R.S. Code, that you have 6 to file a Form 990, which is an informational report to the 7 I.R.S. for tax-exempt organizations, and that's if you have 8 $25,000 or more in total receipts. And, we just didn't want 9 to give anybody the idea that if you report -- "Hey, we 10 reported to the County, and therefore we don't have any 11 other reports to do." That may not be true. If you have an 12 I.R.S. report, for example, or any other report, state or 13 federal or whatever, that you have to make, you still have 14 to do those, but this is the only report that we would 15 require. 16 Last paragraph of the first page, on Audits, 17 and the -- there's a two-pronged approach here. One is that 18 if the department would like to have an audit -- perhaps you 19 had a firehouse burn down or something. But, anyway, you're 20 trying to get your finances back together and you would like 21 to have the County Auditor go through and -- and audit your 22 entire operation for you, you can request that of the 23 Commissioners Court. That's on your request, not anything 24 else. If you want an audit, we -- we can probably provide 25 you one. We would work that with the Auditor. The other 12 1 case would be where we found some discrepancies. This 2 could -- again, could be paperwork discrepancies, but if the 3 public moneys that you got didn't square up, we might want 4 to audit just those public money expenditures. So, whatever 5 receipts you would have and all that, you'd have to make -- 6 and that would only come through the Commissioners Court. 7 It wouldn't just be at the whim of the Auditor. So, it 8 would have to be for some reason that we would ask for that, 9 but it would only apply -- again, would only apply to the 10 expenditure of County funds. Yes, sir? 11 MR. HINTZE: Yes, sir. I would ask that 12 necessary records that you insert there, "applicable to 13 County reimbursement or County funds disbursed," to separate 14 that from the other funds that a department has, such as our 15 grants, donations, things of that nature. 16 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Okay. Well, like I 17 said, we'll look at that sentence, 'cause that's actually 18 what the intent was there. 'Cause it says, "make the 19 necessary records available to the County Auditor for an 20 audit of expenditures of County funds under this contract." 21 So -- but we'll look at the wording. If it's confusing, 22 we'll certainly want to clarify that. 23 Page 2, I won't go into any details of any of 24 this, except down on -- and then we can have comments on it 25 if anyone has comments. But, on -- on 17, we have put the 13 1 language in there now so that these things could be executed 2 before the beginning of the fiscal year, so that the 3 contract is -- is in place and ready to go on the first day 4 of the fiscal year. Because, as we all know, we -- in the 5 past we have run late with these. This will allow us -- we 6 can sign them in September, get them all agreed to, signed 7 up in September, and then be able to -- to execute them on 8 the 1st of October. With that, I think we can probably 9 throw it open for general comments and -- and questions. 10 And, Travis, do you have anything that you wanted to add at 11 this point? 12 MR. LUCAS: No, unless y'all have any 13 questions. 14 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: He's here to answer 15 questions. 16 MR. HINTZE: Sir, one of the problems we've 17 had, as you well know, is when we operate outside of our 18 primary assigned area -- and a good illustration was the 19 Sheppard Rees fire last year where we incurred some seven -- 20 eighty-seven hundred dollars in repairs to our trucks as a 21 result of that fire. And, I think that the County should 22 establish a budget line item to support contingency 23 requirements like that. I mean, I noticed on the 23rd of 24 July, in the Kerrville Daily Times, there was an item that 25 indicated there was $25,000 more added to pay Kerrville Fire 14 1 Department to fight fires in the unincorporated areas of the 2 county. I think it's only reasonable that the same 3 consideration be given to the volunteer fire departments, 4 since we spend all of our time fighting fires in the 5 unincorporated areas of the county, probably considerably 6 more than Kerrville does. 7 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Let me -- let me 8 address -- or discuss two points on that with you. One is, 9 that $25,000 to Kerrville is a -- a straight-up contract, 10 just like -- just like we are doing here, in essence. 11 Though it's a little more comprehensive than that, because 12 part of it is for Kerrville South, which has no volunteer 13 fire department, and part of it is for the county at large. 14 Okay. So -- and I would -- I'd be careful not to confuse 15 those funds with contingency funds of any kind, because they 16 really aren't contingency; they are hard contracts. 17 MR. HINTZE: Okay. 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Let me add one more thing 19 to that. That contract with the City of Kerrville is no 20 different than this contract is with each -- each individual 21 volunteer fire department. And, the City of Kerrville's 22 contract hasn't been changed in 18 years, where we've 23 reviewed these and pretty much upped them every year. So, I 24 mean, it is the same thing as the $25,000. We'll probably 25 get to it a little bit later, the $25,000 increase to the 15 1 City of Kerrville. The majority -- or many of the fire 2 departments are -- we're considering a -- probably a -- 3 percentage-wise, close to the same increase for some of 4 y'all this year. 5 MR. HINTZE: Okay. Then, if the word 6 "contingency" is causing a problem, why not just establish a 7 budget line item that can be used to support the volunteer 8 fire departments in this regard? It's not saying that the 9 money will be spent. At the end of the fiscal year, if the 10 money's not spent, it can be reprogrammed at the discretion 11 of the Court. 12 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Let me point out that 13 there's -- there are a couple of problems, and I've 14 discussed this to some degree with Travis, and maybe he can 15 help me out here. But, there's -- we have a couple problems 16 with that. One is -- is that the volunteer fire departments 17 are totally independent agencies. We don't control your 18 operations. 19 MR. HINTZE: Right. 20 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Whatsoever. If we 21 were -- and we don't do this, by the way, with Kerrville 22 Fire Department, either. If we were to establish a 23 contingency fund that would just be tapped for things like 24 maintenance or breakdowns that occurred while you were 25 fighting outside of your area, we have, in essence, then 16 1 preapproved -- we have preapproved a budget item which we 2 don't really have statutory authority to do. Now, having 3 said that, on a health, safety, and welfare basis, which 4 gives us broad powers in county government -- on a health, 5 safety, and welfare basis, if we have a disaster, something 6 where we declare a disaster, and if, because of that, you 7 cannot, as we say in Paragraph 2, provide service -- fire 8 protection services to the citizens in your primary area, 9 and we can -- and we can determine that, there's nothing 10 that says, under a disaster circumstance, that we can't 11 declare a budget amendment -- I mean a budget emergency and 12 we can allocate money out of reserves to pay for those kinds 13 of things. The law is set up to do that. That, we can do. 14 But we can't put it in a contract, because we don't control 15 -- you know, if we -- if you were a County department, we 16 might establish you a contingency line item, because that is 17 a statutory -- then we've got a statutory reason for doing 18 that. We can't do it when we're -- when we are contracting. 19 In the contract, we can't put that with a separate -- a 20 separate agency if -- am I right on that -- 21 MR. LUCAS: That's correct. 22 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: -- Travis? But, it's 23 not to say that we can't make emergency funds available when 24 health, safety, or welfare -- for whatever reason, whether 25 it's a fire, flood, or whatever. 17 1 MR. HINTZE: I appreciate your comments, sir, 2 but you've also got to understand -- for instance, the 3 situation we were in, we had two trucks down that we needed 4 to get back in operation as quickly as possible, and we 5 needed that money. There's just not time for the -- to wait 6 for FEMA money or for the Commissioners Court to go through 7 their machinations that we may or may not get paid for those 8 bills. There has to be some mechanism set up so that the 9 fire departments can be assured that they're going to get 10 that money. And, for instance, in the Kerrville fire, we 11 were not looking for the -- for the entire amount. We 12 received $4,200 from the Hill Country Foundation, which was 13 much appreciated, but what we were looking for was help from 14 the County on the remainder of the bills. 15 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Well -- and, again, if 16 we can do that, I suspect they're -- we -- it's not that we 17 wouldn't; it's that we have no legal basis for doing it. If 18 we did it -- we might try it, but we can not find any legal 19 way that we can prebudget money to an independent agency on 20 a contingency basis. It's like, in essence, writing -- sort 21 of writing a blank check. Now, if you had had those same 22 maintenance requirements on a fire fought in your area -- 23 not at Sheppard Rees, but in the Hunt area; if that had 24 occurred, you'd still be in the same pickle. And, if you 25 couldn't provide services under Paragraph 2 of this 18 1 agreement, and there's -- there was a health, safety, and 2 welfare issue caused by that, we can open up the -- on a 3 budget emergency and allocate money anyway, irrespective of 4 that. What I'm saying is, in a bona fide emergency, we 5 don't have to have that in a contract where health, safety, 6 and welfare of Kerr County citizens are involved. We don't 7 have to have it in the contract. And, there's no legal way 8 we can put it in the contract, so that's the reason it's not 9 there. 10 MR. MORALES: Sir, are the Kerr County fire 11 departments a budget item in the County budget? 12 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Yes. We contract for 13 -- and there's actually two separate contracts, one for the 14 county at large, and one for Kerrville South. 15 MR. MORALES: So, on the County budget, under 16 fire departments, there is a budget item there that says 17 Kerr County fire departments? 18 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Yes. 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: It says -- it says City 20 of Kerrville, and it's -- 21 MR. MORALES: Right. 22 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Yeah. 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: -- $100,000 total, but 24 breaks into two contracts, and just like it says Hunt 25 Volunteer Fire Department, you know, all the rest of them; 19 1 Elm Pass, Comfort. 2 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: And, we -- we do have 3 a contract with them to provide that. 4 MR. MORALES: So, how do you acquire the -- 5 or how do you come up with the amounts that are allocated to 6 the County departments? I mean -- 7 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: The volunteer fire 8 departments? 9 MR. MORALES: Yes, sir. 10 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: That's an interesting 11 -- we had an interesting discussion of that during the 12 budget workshops last week, because what had happened, we 13 think -- trying to build a history of this was a little 14 difficult, but at some point in time, some departments were 15 raised and others weren't. Then there was an 16 across-the-board kick one year or something, and then some 17 other -- for some other reason, another department went up. 18 So, we addressed that last week, and we said, right now, to 19 the seven departments for this year, we had allocated 20 $73,800 total, if you put them all together. And the 21 proposal that we are considering now -- this is in our 22 current budget deliberations -- raises that $73,800 to 23 $77,000, and divides by seven, so that every department 24 would get $11,000. Now, that's a hit to two departments. 25 It's an increase, and a substantial increase, to several 20 1 departments, and an increase -- but some increase to 2 everybody else. There's two -- two of the departments that 3 would -- that would take a budget hit, and everybody else 4 gets some increase. So, that -- and what -- and then in the 5 future, I think what's the -- and the feeling of the Court 6 is -- I know it's certainly my position -- that what we 7 should do then in future years is, as we look at the budget 8 each year, we'll say, "How much can we put in for volunteer 9 fire departments?" We'll put whatever we think we can into 10 the budget, divide by seven. So, you're going to know that 11 you're going to get one-seventh of the budget every time, or 12 if you get an eighth one, it will be one-eighth, and so on. 13 MR. MORALES: Would it not help if the seven 14 departments would come up with a budget for the County every 15 year? 16 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: It puts, I suspect -- 17 MR. MORALES: Is it something that y'all 18 could look at and say, "Okay, this is what the departments 19 feel is always their budget"? 20 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: That's right, that 21 wouldn't hurt. Let me give you a reason, though, that you 22 might not want to do that. That would be a lot of work on 23 your part. And, in the final analysis, when we look at it 24 in the budget process, we probably are going to look at it 25 in the aggregate; how much are we willing to spend total on 21 1 volunteer fire departments? And, if you have to go through 2 and try to build a budget, that's somebody -- that's 3 overhead to you that I'm not sure you want to do. It would 4 always help if we had a statement of -- of what your -- you 5 think your needs are for the next year. That's always a 6 help from anybody. 7 MR. MORALES: Sure. 8 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: That we're trying to 9 get into the budget. But I think, in the final analysis, 10 it's going to depend on how much can we put into the budget, 11 and then -- and we'll try to make this number as high as we 12 can, of course, and go from there. We don't -- we probably 13 could never reach the point that we're going to be your sole 14 source of funding. We know you rely on grants and donations 15 and -- and barbecues and all that kind of thing, and -- and 16 that's probably going to have to continue. But we would 17 like to stabilize the amount so that you -- so that you can 18 sort of plan from year to year. Hey, we're getting -- we're 19 going to get $11,000 this year, and, hey, if they can bump 20 it up next year, you know, we're going to get our share, so 21 we should have $11,000. It's not going to be piecemeal, one 22 department goes up a little bit and nobody else does. 23 MR. MORALES: That was my other question. On 24 Paragraph 4, where it says "a sum not to exceed," and we had 25 a -- a sum there that the contributions from Kerr County 22 1 didn't even meet the sum that it wasn't to exceed. So, 2 our -- our comeback to that was -- is how can we -- 3 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Spend money? 4 MR. MORALES: Or how can we prepare something 5 if we assume, and then we get less than that? You know, how 6 can we sit down and figure out our budget? 7 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: If I understand, what 8 you're saying is that you got a total bill that was more 9 than your total -- you got a bill that was more than your 10 total allocation? 11 MR. MORALES: It was less -- I mean, I'm 12 sorry. The money that was allocated to us was less than the 13 sum that was not to exceed here. We had a sum -- 14 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Well, the way it would 15 be right now, for example, if we go with this other 16 approach, $11,000 to each department, you'll have $11,000 17 essentially in the bank. 18 MR. MORALES: Yeah, that was our question. 19 How could we, you know, sit down at the -- or the beginning 20 of the year and figure our budget out if -- you know, if we 21 see something on paper, then we receive something else? 22 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: You're not going to 23 receive -- this will -- 24 MR. MORALES: That's what it was. 25 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: This is going to be it 23 1 when you're going to see a number. 2 MR. MORALES: Well, that will take care of 3 that. 4 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: In the budget process, 5 that will be a number in this contract, and that's going to 6 be the number that you'll have for next fiscal year, and 7 that's it. And you can -- you can spend up to that amount 8 and be reimbursed or get prepaid by the -- by the County. 9 MR. HALL: Out of curiosity, Larry, when 10 y'all do the money to the City of Kerrville, y'all just 11 write them a check for that? Or do they provide y'all any 12 invoices on their -- do they bill you? 13 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: I don't know that -- 14 MR. HALL: Do they bill you per fire? 15 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: No. 16 MR. HALL: In other words, they get a blank 17 check? 18 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: No, it's a contract 19 for services. 20 COMMISSIONER LETZ: A set amount. 21 MR. HALL: What I'm getting at is, you know, 22 we provide you with the invoices to get our money, but do 23 they provide y'all with invoices -- 24 JUDGE HENNEKE: No, it's -- 25 MR. HALL: -- to get their money? 24 1 JUDGE HENNEKE: It's a different legal 2 arrangement than volunteer fire departments. 3 MR. HALL: Okay. That's -- 4 JUDGE HENNEKE: Municipalities, other 5 government agencies -- 6 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: It's an interlocal -- 7 JUDGE HENNEKE: -- come under a different 8 category. 9 MR. HALL: That's what I was wondering. 10 JUDGE HENNEKE: We have to have invoices in 11 order to reimburse or prepay the volunteer fire departments. 12 MR. HALL: I was just curious. I never heard 13 it. 14 JUDGE HENNEKE: That's the difference. 15 COMMISSIONER LETZ: One thing I might add, 16 Larry was talking about on the change and funding everyone 17 equally. One of the reasons why we talked about it and 18 talked about it, I think, was a -- with a lot of the chiefs 19 before, in trying to come up with an equitable way to do it, 20 we couldn't think of a way that's not going to pit each 21 other against each other. We tried to do it by population, 22 square miles -- again, confusing formulas as to how you're 23 going to fund it. And the other reason was, all the 24 volunteer fire departments help each other, so even though 25 we may be -- you know, a new truck to Elm Pass helps Center 25 1 Point and Comfort. I mean, it's kind of like you -- 'cause 2 you help each other. This way it kind of helps all the fire 3 departments about the same level, and all the fire 4 departments help each other. So, it's all -- it's help to 5 everybody, and it's a way for -- it probably improves the 6 planning and budgets for all fire departments. 7 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Is there a question 8 out there that I haven't answered yet? 9 MR. MORALES: On Number 4, real quick, sir, 10 on the parts, training, equipment, and insurance, 11 expenditures could be used for that. Would that also take 12 in any medical equipment? 13 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Yes. 14 MR. MORALES: I mean, since we're First 15 Responders, if we have things on the medical equipment side, 16 would that be okay? 17 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Yeah. It's -- notice, 18 it's -- that sentence you could drive a truck through, 19 because it says for expenses incurred in provision of fire 20 protection services, including, but not limited to -- but 21 not limited to, replacement parts, training, equipment, and 22 insurance. Those are just some examples of things that you 23 might want to cover, but if -- you're not limited to that. 24 MR. MORALES: That's new equipment, too? 25 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: It's equipment. You 26 1 can make capital purchases, you can -- 2 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Replace the roof on 3 the firehouse, whatever. 4 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Yeah, replace the roof 5 on the firehouse is a good example. You can use it for 6 facilities maintenance, whatever you want to use it for that 7 is, quote, a legitimate purpose. Now, the Auditor's going 8 to look at that. If there's a bill for -- you know, for a 9 trip to New Orleans, you might -- he might say, wait a 10 minute. What does this have to do with the -- going down 11 there to pick up a truck, I hope. 12 (Discussion off the record.) 13 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Danny? 14 MR. MORALES: Yes, sir? 15 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Also, you might want 16 to watch for -- you had mentioned First Responders. 17 MR. MORALES: Yes, sir. 18 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: And equipment to 19 supply those type of folks. Hopefully, we're going to get 20 around to funding a part of that, also; to provide through 21 the -- through the Training Officer at the fire department, 22 the First Responder guy, some of those medical packets to 23 you guys later on. We're talking about funding -- four? 24 Was it four? Four right now. So -- and, as the years go 25 along, we'll -- we would increase that. So, you wouldn't 27 1 want to spend this money on First Responder-type things when 2 we're going to do it from another direction. 3 MR. MORALES: Great. 4 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: 'Cause you might need 5 a first aid kit for a truck or something. That's certainly 6 reasonable. 7 MR. MORALES: That's good to know. 8 MR. HINTZE: Sir, if we could address Item 9 17, the effective date. "This agreement is effective upon 10 approval by order of the Kerr County Commissioners Court or 11 the beginning of the contract term, whichever is latest." 12 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Right. And let me 13 tell you why that's worded that way. We would hope that 14 all of the contracts would be signed, sealed, and delivered 15 before the beginning of the contract term, which is 16 1 October. Which means, then, that it would start on 17 1 October. 18 MR. HINTZE: Right. 19 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: What happens is -- is 20 that we send -- we'll send out, after the Court approves in 21 our last August session -- after we approve the contract 22 form, we'll send all the contracts out to the departments. 23 We'll get them back -- and we sometimes get some back in a 24 big hurry; sometimes we get some back a little bit later. 25 But, as those come in, then we have to bring them into court 28 1 and approve them. We have to approve the contract and 2 authorize the County Judge to sign same after the 3 departments have signed them. So, the -- the procedure 4 is -- is that -- is that it may be that we haven't written 5 that order until after the -- if we don't get the contract 6 back until, say, the 1st of October, it will be the next 7 session of the Court before we can sign the order and make 8 it effective so we can start disbursing funds through the 9 Auditor. So -- so, we hope that it's always the second 10 case; that we get them all signed in September, and then the 11 beginning of the contract term is what comes latest, and 12 that's when it starts. And, that's the goal, is get them 13 all in place, and so that you can -- you can present a bill 14 on the 1st of October and have it paid. 15 MR. HINTZE: I understand what you said, but 16 what concerns me is "whichever occurs the latest." If -- if 17 you said "at the next session of the Commissioners Court," 18 following the -- you know, the -- however you want to word 19 it -- the 1st of October, fine. But, there -- I think there 20 needs to be a stake in the ground. Because, unfortunately, 21 two years ago, it was the 28th of February before we finally 22 were able to get all these contracts signed. 23 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Well, and that's the 24 reason. I'm saying that we can't disburse funds until we 25 have a contract signed. 29 1 MR. HINTZE: I understand that. 2 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: So, if -- if the 3 Court's order, which is -- indicates that signature -- if 4 the court order is the last thing that occurs and it's after 5 the 1st of October, that's when the contract -- or that's 6 when the contract's effective. It's effective on the date 7 it gets signed, unless it's signed before the 1st of 8 October, and then it's effective 1 October. That's all that 9 says. We can't have it effective until after it's signed, 10 but we hope to get it signed before 1 October so that it is 11 effective on 1 October. I'll -- we'll play with that to 12 make sure that it's clear, but what it's doing is it's 13 saying that, "Hey, sign the contracts." 14 MR. HINTZE: I understand your intent, sir, 15 but when I read that, I don't get that out of that sentence. 16 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Is your concern, Dutch, 17 that we're going to hold the contract and not approve it? 18 MR. HINTZE: No, but there are circumstances 19 may evolve -- you may have an emergency or something, and -- 20 and the contracts not be approved by the Court for some 21 month, two month's time, so then the department is left in a 22 state of limbo. And my concern is, it -- I think there 23 needs to be a stake in the ground. 24 JUDGE HENNEKE: There can't be. 25 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: We can't. 30 1 JUDGE HENNEKE: Until the contract is 2 approved by the Court, it's not effective, whether it's 3 signed or not, and you can't force the Court to approve the 4 form of the contract. There has to be a certain amount of 5 good faith on both sides. We're going to take care of you. 6 What happened two years ago was an aberration which was -- 7 which resulted from redoing contracts with a new Court in 8 place. We don't intend for that to happen again. That's 9 why we're here in July. 10 MR. HINTZE: Why can't there be a stake put 11 in the ground so that the Court has responsibilities? 12 JUDGE HENNEKE: Because it's not legal. You 13 cannot force the Court to approve a contract. 14 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: We can't. 15 JUDGE HENNEKE: Contract can only be approved 16 by the Court when they are ready to consider and take it up. 17 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: We have to have it 18 signed. As soon as we get -- 19 MR. HINTZE: That doesn't give me a warm, 20 comfy feeling, I'm sorry. 21 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: I guarantee you this; 22 as soon as we -- as soon as we get the contract back from 23 you, signed -- 24 MR. HINTZE: Yes, sir. 25 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: -- that's when it's 31 1 going to be on the next agenda. 2 MR. HINTZE: Yes, sir. We have a 3 responsibility to get the contract back to you. I fully 4 understand that. 5 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Our commitment to you 6 and our policy is that we will approve those suckers as soon 7 as we can get them on the court agenda. We'll do that and 8 we'll jump through a hoop. If you -- if you call me and 9 tell me, "Hey we're going to have it there in time for the 10 next court session," I'm going to put it on the agenda. 11 Even -- and I have to do that a week in advance. 12 MR. HINTZE: Then why can't you say that in 13 the contract? 14 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: But it still has to be 15 signed and the court order written before the contract's 16 effective. That's legal. That's just a point of law, that 17 we have to have a signed contract and the Court's order 18 approving it before we have an effective contract date. 19 That's just -- that's the law. I'm saying we'll do that as 20 fast as we can. I would hope that next year, if this 21 contract form holds up, we could put these suckers out in 22 June, and -- and as soon as we can get them out for any 23 comment, and then as soon as we have a budget number, you're 24 going to have those contracts in your hands. We can't put 25 the contracts out to you until we know what that budget 32 1 number is. And -- and if you can turn those around and get 2 them right back to us, we can have them in the next Court 3 session to get them approved and the court order written, 4 and then you're just sitting there waiting for the clock to 5 run till 1 October, and it's effective. That's what we're 6 hoping for. 7 MR. HINTZE: One more thing, sir. Paragraph 8 14, Limits of the Relationship. "Parties hereby agree that 9 this is a contract for the administration of the fire 10 protection program." Wouldn't that be more appropriate if 11 it read "for providing fire protection services," rather 12 than "administration of the fire protection program"? 13 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: I don't have any 14 problem with that. We can -- it's -- this was out of the -- 15 this was out of one of those contracts that we had that I -- 16 that I had online from you guys, the limits of the 17 relationship. It's -- it really is for the provision of 18 fire protection. I don't have any problem with that 19 language change, but I probably ought to get that through -- 20 MR. LUCAS: Yeah. I mean, that's straight 21 out of the Code. 22 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: This one? 23 MR. LUCAS: Well, here's the direct verbiage. 24 "Provide for fire protection." 25 COMMISSIONER LETZ: If you tie it back to the 33 1 language -- 2 JUDGE HENNEKE: We need to think about that. 3 COMMISSIONER LETZ: If you tie it back to the 4 language in Paragraph 3, Consideration, it says "fire 5 protection duties." To me, you should use the same verbiage 6 in both, but I think it's really just a legal issue as to 7 what -- I mean, just to make it sure it complies. 8 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Yeah, 'cause there is 9 no administrative cost in here. I don't have a problem with 10 that. I'll work that with Travis and the next version that 11 we consider and discuss, we can probably get words to that 12 effect in there. 13 (Discussion off the record.) 14 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Anything else? 15 MR. MORALES: One more item to clear up, sir. 16 Will we be presented, like before, a check come October, or 17 do we submit bills to the Court and more or less a draw from 18 our -- 19 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Right. 20 MR. MORALES: -- budget? 21 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: You submit a bill to 22 the Auditor. 'Cause he's authorized -- 23 MR. MORALES: Whether we've paid it -- the 24 department's paid it and we're looking for reimbursement, or 25 the department hasn't paid it and we're looking for payment? 34 1 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. 2 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Right. You present 3 those to the Auditor, and he'll get you -- you notice it 4 says the normal payment process. Because he brings all 5 bills -- not just fire departments; he brings all bills to 6 court each session, and we pay bills. If it's one you need 7 in a hurry, he can even call it a late bill, so-called, and 8 try to get a check written a little bit earlier sometimes. 9 MR. MORALES: Could there be a possibility 10 that the Court would not approve the bill for payment? I 11 mean, if it's -- 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Not for legitimate 13 services. 14 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: No, if it's for -- 15 that's right. If it's for providing fire protection, 16 running a firehouse, doing those kind of things, it's going 17 to get paid. 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: A trip to Las Vegas, we 19 might -- you know, we might say, "Hey, wait a minute." 20 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Firefighters 21 convention. A little shaky there. 22 MR. MORALES: Would we get more or less a 23 balance that's left in the -- 24 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Yes. 25 MR. MORALES: -- budget money? 35 1 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: You can ask -- you can 2 get that from the Auditor at any time, but I would keep it 3 on my -- in my own books, too. 4 MR. MORALES: Sure. 5 JUDGE HENNEKE: I'm not sure you can get that 6 from the Auditor, but -- 7 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: I've asked him several 8 times. 9 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: They're always a month 10 behind or so, but you can do it. 11 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Yeah. But, I mean, he 12 can -- the Auditor's office will be able to run down the 13 numbers that they have of all the bills that they have paid. 14 If you -- 15 MR. MORALES: If we have a question on our 16 department -- 17 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Right. 18 MR. MORALES: -- you know, as our bills have 19 been paid out, we would like to know what our budgeted 20 money -- how much we still have or whatever, that won't be a 21 problem? 22 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Those get paid out by 23 line item, so they are tracked just like any other line item 24 in our budget. So, those numbers -- now, they may -- if 25 there's a bill that's pending that hasn't been paid yet, 36 1 that won't show up, but that's true county-wide. I mean, 2 you -- 3 MR. MORALES: Right. 4 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: It's a line item. 5 Your department has a line item in the budget. Anything 6 else? 7 MR. AHRENS: Yeah. Larry, since my 8 department's going to be one of the two that's going to be 9 losing, in my case, over 15 percent of my budget, I guess 10 I've got some questions. I know Kerrville has primary 11 responsibility for Kerrville South, and I believe that in 12 the past, before my time, that's probably why Turtle Creek's 13 was upped, because we're the next closest folks. Since 14 Kerrville only provides -- provides one engine or one 15 vehicle, whatever else, on a fire or wherever else, we're 16 the next in line that always gets called. So, you know, our 17 run tallies are going to be higher because of the 18 requirement to help Kerrville out in that area, 'cause we're 19 the first and closest people. 20 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: We were just told 21 about an hour and a half ago that the policy of Kerrville 22 Fire Department is now to dispatch two trucks to every call. 23 MR. AHRENS: Oh, okay. 24 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: And that's for 25 personnel, primarily. So -- 37 1 MR. AHRENS: Yeah, okay. 2 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: The Chief said it was 3 primarily for personnel counts. There's some kind -- 4 MR. LUCAS: There's a new law that's out. 5 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: -- of a new law that 6 says before they can go into a structure, if they send two 7 people in, they've got to have two people out, so they are 8 now dispatching two trucks to every -- every call. 9 MR. HALL: Are they going to get themselves 10 some tankers? 11 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: We hope so, after the 12 Harper fire. 13 MR. HALL: Don't hold your breath. 14 AUDIENCE: Golly, if they're sending in two 15 trucks for personnel purposes -- 16 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Well, two trucks would 17 be there, is what I'm saying. They are dispatching two 18 trucks to every fire call. 19 MR. AHRENS: As long as they don't have a 20 requirement in town that they need those two trucks. 21 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Perhaps. 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think if it's in 23 Kerrville South, that's a primary concern. They get the 24 same priority as inside the city limits of Kerrville. 25 MR. AHRENS: Does it really? 38 1 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I believe so. It's under 2 contract. 3 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That's what they say. 4 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: It's under contract. 5 If they're not doing it, we need to know about it. 6 MR. AHRENS: That's a surprise to me. I 7 always thought, since it was a contract area, that if they 8 had their units tapped out in town, that they will not send 9 anything. 10 COMMISSIONER LETZ: They may have some 11 mechanism for priorities and stuff like that, but I'm not 12 aware of it. But, they're the primary responder to 13 Kerrville South under that contract, so -- and they are, you 14 know, of course, backed up from other departments in the 15 area. 16 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: If all their trucks 17 are tied up in a fire in Kerrville, I'm -- I doubt pretty 18 seriously you're going to get a fire truck out in Kerrville 19 South. I mean, you can't get one there if you don't have 20 it. 21 MR. HALL: Is there any limits on mileage 22 that they'll go outside the city limits? 23 JUDGE HENNEKE: No. 24 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Supposedly not. 25 COMMISSIONER LETZ: County-wide, but I think 39 1 they -- I think Chief Holloway said they more or less send 2 one almost routinely at -- within 4 to 5 miles. If it's 3 close to the city limits or city limits area, 4 to 5 miles 4 out, they send one almost automatically when they hear the 5 tone going out to the volunteer fire departments for those 6 areas. And they might call them back if, you know, the 7 fire -- volunteer fire department gets there first or tones 8 that they're going to be there, they'll call the truck back. 9 But, they'll dispatch it out from the station almost 10 immediately. 11 MR. HALL: 'Cause I'd almost bet you they 12 wouldn't go to the far west end of the county or far east 13 end. 14 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think they will if 15 there's -- I mean, they're supposed to, as I understand 16 their -- they provide county-wide. 17 MR. HALL: They come up with an excuse. 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think that's something 19 if -- I mean, if they're not responding, that's something I 20 think that I -- I mean, certainly in my precinct, I'd like 21 to know it, because there is a contract with City of 22 Kerrville. And then we can say -- 23 MR. HALL: Appreciate it. 24 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Because if we don't -- or 25 I don't know that they're not doing something they're 40 1 supposed to be doing, I can't go over to City Council or the 2 Mayor and Fire Chief and say, "Why weren't you responding?" 3 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: They only -- is the 4 contract for just structure fires? It's -- that's 5 county-wide for any fire? 6 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Any kind of fire, 7 anything that V.F.D. answers a call to. 8 MR. HINTZE: Only got one brush truck, right? 9 COMMISSIONER LETZ: They are -- from what 10 their budget has told us -- a little bit aside, but they do 11 have some in the works for some equipment upgrades; I guess 12 increase in new equipment purchases, as well, and new 13 staffing. Additional personnel, is what I believe. That's 14 all pending through budget in both the -- primarily the 15 City. 16 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Any other questions or 17 comments? If you've got anything else -- anybody has 18 anything else that you'd like to feed back to this later, as 19 I say, we'll be working it and we will bring it back to the 20 Court for consideration and approval in the last August 21 session. So, if you have additional comments or questions 22 about it, give me a call. 23 MR. HALL: Appreciate y'all getting on this, 24 getting it done. 25 MR. MORALES: Thank you. 41 1 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Hmm? 2 MR. HALL: I said, I appreciate y'all getting 3 on this and getting it done. 4 JUDGE HENNEKE: Thank y'all for coming out 5 this afternoon. 6 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Thank you. 7 JUDGE HENNEKE: We are adjourned. 8 (Workshop adjourned at 3:06 p.m.) 9 - - - - - - - - - - 10 11 12 13 STATE OF TEXAS | 14 COUNTY OF KERR | 15 The above and foregoing is a true and complete 16 transcription of my stenotype notes taken in my capacity as 17 County Clerk of the Commissioners Court of Kerr County, 18 Texas, at the time and place heretofore set forth. 19 DATED at Kerrville, Texas, this 6th day of August, 20 2001. 21 22 23 JANNETT PIEPER, Kerr County Clerk 24 BY: _________________________________ Kathy Banik, Deputy County Clerk 25 Certified Shorthand Reporter